Author Topic: Archive 11  (Read 3939 times)

Richard

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Archive 11
« on: May 03, 2012, 10:11:09 am »
Sea Frost has been chosen
[b:e886f338da] :roll: Richard, we have decided to go with the Sea Frost BDX80 compressor withe the two evaporator plates in the freezer and the spillover divider that you have suggested for our 11.5 cf box in a Vagabond 42. I feel real confident with that system and being able to have a freezer when we are in the Bahamas. Will be ordering the system real soon from Sea Frost. Getting ready to addadd another 3" of insulation on the inside of the box that already has 4" around the outside or in between the walls. Using the foam boards made out of POLYISOCYANURATE. Have you heard anything good about that board Better or worse than the pink Urethane board? Sea Frost says that I do not need to add the manual speed control for this unit due to it already has the automatic speed control. Should I still get it? Will be taking out the old 110v system charged with R-12. Is there a way that the compressor of that system can suck it back in and hold it . I think your book said something about doing that but it didn't make sense to me . Please re- explain on how to do this. Would this compressor handle 3 - 12"x21" evaporator plates. Besides the 2 in the freezer section, I was thinking of adding another in the refrig section just in case the spillover divider board would not allow enough cold into the refrig section. What are your thoughts about that? Thanks Richard for all that you do for us!! Jim[/b:e886f338da]


Mr. Kollmann, I replaced the t-stat on the cool blue unit box. The t-stat wire is 3/4 down the tube on the side of the plate. It is a 2 1/2 thick plate. The t-stat was set on 4 and the unit has been running for 24 hrs non-stop. Temps: bottom of freezer was 0' F, Holding plate at mid point was - 10' f on the frost, and - 2' f on the metal of the plate. When I backed the t-stat back to 3 it shut off. stayed off for about 40 mins. then back on. I will check the amps used again tomorrow. Is there anything that would effect/interfere with the capilary tube keeping it from turning the unit off at the proper temps? Several gallons and bottles of water are frozen in the freezer area so it seems to be working fine ...just working too much maybe? Thanks, Tom

Status Update
Richard, Status update. I've tried the bleed, start, check amps procedure 6 times. In all cases the bleed is a very short depression of the stem needle on the recharge fitting, nominally one second. Audible fluid escapes. Three things seem to happen ... 1. No restart 2. Restart with compressor cutoff in a few minutes 3. Continuous running until compressor cycles off, then no restart. The rundown ... Bleed 1: No restart Bleed 2: This happened after some time (hours) Restart, ran for about 30 minutes, cutoff. Amp draw about 6+. Bleed 3: again hours later, no restart Bleed 4: again hours later, restart, ran for many hours to cool box, seemed to frost evaporator a bit slower than before, was drawing about 6 amps, it may have cycled on/off but I was sleeping, in the morning it was on the no start cycle Bleep 5: after being on a no start cycle, started, ran for 6 minutes, stopped Bleed 6: a bit after bleed 5, no restart It seems to be a startup issue, but the in-cycle cutoff is still troubling. I'll keep trying unless you advise otherwise. Note that I have some R12 available to recharge if necessary AND I am CFC certified to use it. Only thing I do not have are the gauges to check pressures. Thanks Peter

Cold Machine
While you were replying to my earlier problem I went to the boat to specifically checkout the model #, etc. and to see if any identifying problems could be spotted. Battery on, fan went right on, cleaned out coils, brushed off fan blades, turned on unit, fan works fine, compressor running and over 20min. got warm, not hot, checked lines for air leaks, in evaporator box found near top tube a light brownish spot that appeared to have been soldered over in earlier years. Did not notice before spray painting interior white but this spot has appeared since I sprayed. Is this leaking freon/oil? If so, I have a good sailing friend in the AC business and could reweld this as he did for me on my portable AC? Or could a replacement evaporator box work with my old unit? and the fittings? And then what would happen with old compressor and new evaporator internally?

BD trouble
Yes, on your unit C and T are the thermostat connections. If there is an area in the box that normally will keep ice frozen You could place a frozen tray of of cubes upside down in the box. If cubes fall out of tray the unit stopped lone enough to melt the ice. At this point my book will not help you and if the problem were inside compressor there is no test you could do except clean the compressor electrical plug to find your problem. I still believe that bypassing the boat and ACDC module is the answer.

Project
Q. POLYISOCYANURATE. Have you heard anything good about that board Better or worse than the pink Urethane board? I have no experance with Polyisocyanurate insulation. Q. Sea Frost says that I do not need to add the manual speed control for this unit due to it already has the automatic speed control. Should I still get it? No, Danfosss new module with automatic speed control is a complete unit so you cant have both manual and automatic. Q. Will be taking out the old 110v system charged with R-12. Is there a way that the compressor of that system can suck it back in and hold it . I think your book said something about doing that but it didn't make sense to me . Please re- explain on how to do this? You might be able to store the refrigerant between the compressor and receiver outlet but this will not do you much good unless the compressor and receiver are removed as an assembly. Q.Would this compressor handle 3 - 12"x21" evaporator plates. Besides the 2 in the freezer section, I was thinking of adding another in the refrig section just in case the spillover divider board would not allow enough cold into the refrig section. What are your thoughts about that? You would need to ask Seafrost as their system uses a constant pressure expansion valve.

Over powering system
It sounds like you are trying to push the freeze point too low inside the plate. The thermostat must be for a freezer and the eutectic solution in plate is not set to freeze below zero. Set the thermostat to one and if that does not raise temperature increase the thermostats sense bulb contact with plate.

Compressor Overload
If frost is still present on 100% of evaporator and amperage is above 5 then it still has too much pressure on high side or compressor troubles. Remove more refrigerant. It frost is now only present on part of evaporator and amperage is above five then refrigerant is contaminated or there is a mechanical probem in compressor still most unlikely.

Evaporator leaks
The aluminum evaporator is not repairable but your friend can make a temperary repair. A new evaporator can be install, connect and service, using your old condensing unit for $200 if your friend's labor is free. This requires about three hours labor.

Cold Machine
The replies were most helpful and the direction I need to move to is a new complete system. If you have any suggestions for a system better and more cost effective, giving me as good a service as this Adler Barber has given, please advise. I am all ears. Otherwise, it would seem to be a poor decision on my part to go to a unit unknown to me when the Cold Machine has been so reliable for 20+ years. Do you agree? Steve


Richard, In one of posts above, you said: [i:86cc26d7eb]9. We need to know if the thermostat turns off the power to the electrical module or it allows the module to control the compressor cycling. If there is a jumper wire between module terminals C and T then the thermostat controls the power to the unit. Wire colors other than red and black have no meaning to me as I do not have a WAECO electrical drawing. Is there a jumper Yes or No? [/i:86cc26d7eb] and later: [i:86cc26d7eb]Placing a jumper across the thermostat terminals at module will eliminate thermostat and its wiring.[/i:86cc26d7eb] I am confused! - Does the jumper cause the thermostat to control the compressor by turning it on and off? Or does it eliminate the signal from the thermostat? If the latter, how does module control the compressor? PS: I added readings from clamp-on meter to earlier posts - current draw seem normal at a cold start up. Fan draw is too low to measure accurately.

Re: BD trouble
[quote:e074f6c6d9="kollmann"]Yes, on your unit C and T are the thermostat connections. If there is an area in the box that normally will keep ice frozen You could place a frozen tray of of cubes upside down in the box. If cubes fall out of tray the unit stopped lone enough to melt the ice. At this point my book will not help you and if the problem were inside compressor there is no test you could do except clean the compressor electrical plug to find your problem. I still believe that bypassing the boat and ACDC module is the answer.[/quote:e074f6c6d9] Thanks! I will definitely first test without the AC/DC rectifier. I have borrowed a good clamp-on ammeter so should be able to check current. [CHECKED - ~4.7A RUNNING, ~5.9A STARTUP PEAK] I have decided to buy two low cost temperature loggers - One will be inside box and the other just above condenser fan. Hopefuly, this will give me a picture of box temperature vs compressor on/off cycle over an extended period. If there is no problem over say 48hrs, I will switch to battery with charger on and if that is OK, then go to the AC/DC rectifier. Hopefully this will narrow down where the problem may be. I have a suspicion that switching bewteen 12V battery power and 25V from rectifier witout shutting down in-between, may have confused thE control module, so if everything else works, I will also test this. I will post in a few weeks if I have any interesting results.

Troubleshooting
When I asked earlier, is there a jumper on thermostat terminals at module? I wanted to know if the thermostat was controlling power to module, as is the practice on Isotherm refrigeration, or does the thermostat control the module switching. Module switching is the normal Danfoss way of controlling compressor cycling. You said, no jumper wire on module thermostat terminals which answered the control question Now another item to eliminate if it turns out it is not a voltage problem is a poor connection in the thermostat or its wiring. This is done putting a jumper across module terminals C and T on a BD35 module to eliminate possible problems with thermostat or its wiring. I dont like giving this information to people who dont follow directions because it is possible to damage a module. Do not play with thermostat circuit as it is designed to handle 2 to 4 milliamps of current only. You need to quit playing with this system and go back to the first step a voltage problem with the boat or the AC/DC converter. I have been told there is a problem with these converters By-Pass it and you may find the trouble.

Enough 12v power for Sea FRost
Richard, just finished adding more insulation to my frig box. I have a Vagabond 42. I now have a total of 6" of insulation. Thought I was sold on Sea Frost, but you seem to like Cool Blue along with CSYmon. This is what I have for box configuration: Freezer is 3 cf and the refrig is 4.6 cf with a spillover divider. For Sea Frost it will have two 12x21 evaporator plates in the freezer. For 12v power I have 2 - 8d's for house; a separate starting battery; and a 4d for the Fridge area hooked up with 1 or both house batteries, whichever I choose to have. I have an Ampair wind generator and two 125watt solar panels. Do I have enough 12v power for the Sea frost system? Should I get water cooled for the Sea Frost? or do you feel it is not necessary? I want to get the BDX system with the bigger compressor or is it a overkill? The unit will be under the setee less than 12 feet away. Or Richard should I go with the Cool Blue/ So confused at this point and I'm not sure which is the best system for our boat----Evaporator plate or holding plate---Cool Blue or Sea FRost HELP, Please Jim Halpin s/v Magic Moments


How does the cost compare..? Cool Blue sometimes sells with a discount, Boat Show specials, etc. Todays price, with the upgraded 2.5" holding plate is $2,559. (5 years ago I paid $1,300.00 plus $140.00 for the big holding plate upgrade/exchange, a bargain... :shock: ) I have about the same box sizes as you with the same spillover system: My two 75 watt panels pretty much takes care of the fridge/freezer amp-hour needs. (40 to 50 amp-hours a day) With your two 125 watt solar panels you should have plenty of power, then some....If the sun is shining. :mrgreen: The only problems I had with my system was to fit the big holding plate into the small freezer: It just would not go in the opening, I tried for an hour to squeeze it in, but gave up. One of my buddies kept trying and finally he found the right angle to get it in, then turn it the right way to mount in...A really tight fit and I did not think to measure before I ordered it. Perhaps a good thing I did not... Another bottle neck was to bend the copper tubing without flattening it: Be very carefull. Besides that, the system worked great once installed and hoked up. Had to add a relay for the hour-meter and the 2 computer case fans as the start-up load would shut the compressor down. A trip to Radio Shack solved that however. (Also bought a dual digital thermometer at Radio Shack, mounted it on the divider wall between the fridge and freezer, and routed the remote sensor into the freezer. Now I can read the temp in both boxes just by lifting the fridge-lid. It will also show MAX and MIN temps since reset last time. It runs on an internal AAA battery that I have not changed in 5 years. The cost for the thermometer was all of $20.00) I insulated the cold copper tube with 1/2 tube foam, then duct-taped over the foam to keep the "cold" where it belongs as I had to coil the copper tube inside the compressor compartment where it can get quite warm. The next mod I am planning is to add a shroud to the main fan as per Mr. Kollmans book to increase the efficiency even furter.. As the system is today however, I belive it is as efficient as can be for having both a fridge and a freezer run by a small 12 V compressor and to say I am happy with my Cool Blue is an understatement.

Refrigeration recommendation
I do like the Cool Blue as well as a dozen other units but the question is what size and type unit is best for your application. When you were talking about a 11 cu. ft. refrigerator/freezer box and cruising in the Bahamas a single BD50 system was not large enough. Options for that size boxes were either two BD 50 compressors or a BD80 system. The Cool Blue with a BD50 compressor and single holding plate is not a good freezer spillover system for the size box you now have, 7 cu. ft, if cruising in a warm climate. A single BD50 compressor system with wrap around evaporator or two plates opposing each other could provide the capacity needed, roughly 6000 Btu per day. As far as having a good freezer regardless of the system selected the Delta T between two separate boxes will depend of the insulation quality of the divider. An insulated divider of 1 inches thick would allow frozen food to last longer. I rarely recommend water cooling of these small systems do to their poor reliability as compared to air cooled systems. The BD80 might be overkill when not in a warm climate but it will perform well in the tropics. As to onboard battery capacity, it will depend on their age and condition. To be totally alternative energy independent I would recommend 800 watts of rated solar power. Your 125 watts of Solar Panels and wind generator should eliminate running engine every day. The wind and solar power should be connected to the 4d battery and a battery combiner between 4d and 8d banks.


Richard, I don't think Gary answers his email. I have emailed him several times in the past with no response.

R7 foam board in California?
Is high R value polyurethane foam board available anywhere in California? For whatever reason, this isnt available in places like Home Depot.


I have set the t-stat to one or actually a little below that and also raised the eustatic line higher in the tube. Everything is frozen, as you said the unit is working well. The inside temp. of the boat is about 91 F during the day. The box is 10* F and the plate reads about -4* F. I beleive it is runnig less on this configuration you had me set. (I will attach the final amp draw soon.) My last question would be: How does the eustation tube work to triger the shut-off? Is it a bad thing if the tube is touching any other parts of the unit such as a corner of the Placte or the copper return tube. Mine is slightly touching both of these in the upper corner. I hope the problem is now corrected, it appears the t-stat was bad. Do you think I will have any problems by continued use of the freezer t-stat. Thank you very much for your help....you were great! Tom


[quote:9ec3905886="kenkrawford"]Richard, I don't think Gary answers his email. I have emailed him several times in the past with no response.[/quote:9ec3905886] I once received an answer from Gary, but recently no dice! Earlier in the year he was sick - maybe he is off again? BTW, Waeco recommend a Mobitronics MPS-35 for the BD-35F and an MPS-50 for the BD-50F. These units put out 24V, but apparently the compressors don't mind! They can work on 12V or 24V supply. Or so my Waeco manual says! I have the MPS-35 - the 12V DC wiring passes through this unit. When 110V power is on, a click can be heard as the unit switches off the 12V DC input and it then directs 24V to the compressor system. These units sell for about $75.00, but occasionally appear on eBay for much less. Richard thinks that my unit may be causing an intermittent problem I have experienced, when my refrigeration seems to go into hibernation for an hour or two (even when I am not using AC). I am still working on troubleshooting this, but the unit does "seem" to work fine for extended periods at dock. I would try calling Waeco/Adler Barbour first to make sure the unit will suit your compressor.